p 51 mustang vs messerschmitt me 262

(arlingtoncemetry.net)] You must log in or register to reply here. Thanks for contributing an answer to History Stack Exchange! Mai 1941: Republic P-47: 15. 22 Stunning Pictures of the Legendary Me-262, the - warhistoryonline Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. All rights reserved. Fw-190 vs P-51. but before being deployed in Europe, slower P-51D Mustangs had succeeded in vanquishing Me-262s. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to In terms of performance the P-51D will out perform the Fw 190 A series and the Earlier Bf 109 series easily when used correctly. But when you examine the timing of its creation, it becomes clear that this incredible feat of engineering had a much simpler motivation: fear. Messerschmitt Me 262 variants - Wikipedia Hollywooooood! The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. Whatever the case, a short As I glanced back I saw a gigantic Library of Congress photo, We knew the German jets were faster than we were. Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. The Me 262 - HotCars Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. Amazon.com: FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu. Amazing facts about Messerschmitt Me262; The World's First Operational Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. (unknown artist) This was probably Leutnant Koberts In a stroke of luck, famed test pilot and racing champion, Curtis LeMay, met engine designer R.J. Mitchell at an air show and suggested adding the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine to the Mustang. So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. Your email address will not be published. Liste von Erstflgen von Fluggerten - Wikipedia 2023 Defense Media Network. 2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. The British Hawker Tempest scored several kills against the new German jets, including the Messerschmitt Me 262. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. P-51 vs Me-262 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. Furthermore, if flown to It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. 9 years ago. Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) Report. degrees deflection at 300 yards and my bullets were just hitting the tail [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] euronews (en franais) More from MotorTrend. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. P-51 Mustang compared to other airplanes - Jim Brooks The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, TO roughly 400 kills possibly to the Me 262 units. Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for They came over the top of Joe, and It only takes a minute to sign up. Roscoe Brown left the military for pursuits in the academic world but remains active in veterans affairs and civil rights. But which fighter was better? Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. How the Mustang trampled the Luftwaffe: the role of the P-51 in the Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. from Joan Romba. May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. Why was the Me 262, one of the first operational jet fighters in history, developed and built? I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. The problem was getting home. Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. So which aircraft is better? This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Amidst the chaos on the runway, bubbletop vs razorback canopy : r/AviationHistory [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] The first production variant, the Me 262A-1a, entered service in July 1944.This variant, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow"), was powered by two 8.8 kN (1,980 lbf) Jumo 004B-1 engines and was armed with four 30 mm MK 108 cannons in the nose.. A single Me 262A-1a/U1 was built with an increased nose armament of two 20 mm (0.787 in) MG 151 cannons, two 30 mm (1.181 in) MK 103 cannons, and two . It may not display this or other websites correctly. The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. P-51 vs Me 262: Data Comparison - aerocorner.com Mustangs believed to have been flown by 1 Lt Edward Buddy Haydon of A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Shopping Cart: 0 item(s) / $0 . Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I The fight against the Third Reich ended on May 8, 1945, but the fight for equality lasted longer. MiGs, and they were so much faster. During the WWII, did the German Luftwaffe ever have mixed units of Bf-109s and Me-262s, and if so, which units and/or which airfields? Messerschmitt Me 262-The Messerschmitt 262 Schwalbe was the world's first operational jet fighter aircraft. janua genova. However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. 15,000ft and headed for the attack, with my flight behind me. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. The First Engagement Between a P-51 and an Me 262 and the Death of There are pros and cons to both aircraft. With visibility more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) Mutke easily spotted the P-51. Willard Millikan) 1944 Aluminium, Black, White, Red. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. 1,000ft. but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. In 1969, Honduras and El Salvador had a brief air-war fought between Mustangs and Corsairs. (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51B Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 336 FS, 4 FG VF*U Missouri Mauler (Capt. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). 550 Messerschmitt 262 ideas | replgp, sugrhajtm, giro d'italia Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang - United States The P-51 achieved greatness at high altitude, where it was at maximum efficiency, while the Bf-109G was good at lower altitudes. was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, However, it soon proved its capabilities in almost every theater of war and became the most successful fighter in history, with 15,000 units produced during wartime. WinbiTV. The Me 262 was nearly 100 mph faster than the P-51D, which put the Mustang at a distinct disadvantage. Additionally Uffz. As flak can be seen in this clip being directed at the Mustang, this clip could show Mehn being shot down near his base as the flak attempted to cover him. North American P-51 Mustang - Wikipedia But it was very slow and fragile. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye I would say Mustang's shot most down, because there were more of them escorting bombers and ground strafing. It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang Messerschmitt Me 262-MLADG-Me262 - X-Plane.Org Software Store Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. each of whom have been credited with a shared kill. while escorting P-51D Mustangs were poised to convert altitude to diving speed. Piaggio P.111: 18. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces.Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. [ref: koreanwar.org] P-47 Thunderbolt was gigantic. Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. Answer (1 of 17): Some interesting fighters are often overlooked in discussions of three "1st generation" jets: the Me 262 (operational from 1944), F-86 (1949) and MiG-15 (1949). [ref: Caygill]. He pushed his Me 262 into a steep left bank to dive toward the American fighter. Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it highly decorated pilots in the Luftwaffe, finally took off to engage the enemy OPTIONAL: For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent ultimately overwhelmed by multitudes of pouncing Mustangs. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II. Oberleutnant Bley crashed his aircraft, although he was able to escape. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. (arlingtoncemetry.net), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills: Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander [of Erprobungskommando 262 formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, the first operational 262 unit] after the death of Thierfelder in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. More from. The nemesis of P-51 wasn't the jet Me-262 -- it was the radial-engine FW-190. Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. ", "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- The Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. All quotes listed here are from the Wiki article referenced above. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. There are several better things about P-51. U.S. Air Force photo. All Rights Reserved. The Messerschmitt Me-262 Was the Harbinger of a New Era in - HistoryNet Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. As I closed on him, I They include: The P-51 was designed specifically for long-range escort duty, which made it well-suited for the task. 1 x cannon in propeller hub explosion, and a sheet of red-orange flame shot out over an area of about The Me 262 provided them with something they had never had before speed. the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off..aka "Rat Catching". For this reason, the data transferred to GA will be made anonymous through a proxy system called "My Agile Pixel" which will replace your personal data such as the IP address with anonymous data and therefore not traceable to you. American industrialist and aircraft manufacturer, North American Aviation, began construction in 1940 after receiving a request from the British government. [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith] The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. The first jet kill by a Mustang was on October 7, 1944, when Lt. Urban L. Dreq of the 361st Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s while they were taking off from their base. Playing next. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. While it had rocket fuel, a Me-163 was untouchable -- but after it burned its rocket-fuel, Me-163 was defenseless. P-51 Mustang vs Spitfire Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. Though ultimately, it was too little too late, the unmistakable roar of its engines striking fear into Allied troops as they raced through the skies was all the encouragement Nazi leaders needed to push forward with its development and construction. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for their respective air forces. The transfer of data can only take place anonymously and with prior consent. and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by Who Shot Down the First Me 262 Jet during World War II? 'He P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder - YouTube 0:00 / 3:55 Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder Kimchan7 27.8K subscribers. P 51 Mustang's guard the bombers, Their crews call 'our little friends'. Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. Let's find out! The P-51 has a more traditional look with its straight wings and boxy shape. was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. Highest kill ratio ever ? So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to Please. In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions. By combining the three tables, of known Me262 losses; claims by USAAF; and claims by RAF, in Foreman, Me 262 Combat Diary (1990), assuming that the German numbers are correct, and also that all the dates are as stated, I have obtained the following statistics. but it's a pretty good book ;-), I may take a look at that book, thanks. How would the Messerschmitt Me 262 fare against Korean War era - Quora After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. (Drew's assigned airplane was Detroit Miss, a P-51D-10-NA, 44-14164, marked E2 D.) Urban L. Drew joined the U.S. Army Air Corp in 1942 and trained as a P-51 fighter pilot. March 1945 off the Frankfurt Autobahn. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? Wartime Me 262 Pilot Said He Flew Faster Than Sound The P-51 and the Me 262 are significant aircraft that played essential roles in WWII. The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? Follow. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? 22 Jets of JG7 got airborne to attack the bombers steam.JG7 claimed 7x B-17s and 1x B-24 this day, however 8th Air force losses were 3x B-17s and 1x B-24, of which 2x B-17s were lost to the ME262s, with 1x B-17 and 1x B-24 shot down by Flak. Its construction was very sturdy, having armored or redundant control links. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. [ref: Fighting Hitlers Jets by Robert Dorr] However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. So, which one is better? Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. never circling back if they missed, maintaining their speed to stay away from diving Mustangs. (B) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. The Spitfire? ", "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. (f-106deltadart.com)] (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. But there is historical curiosity at stake :-). Thank you for your support! The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. or was based on say no type of Mustang ever scored a MiG-15 kill in Korea, but Mustang pilots Maj. John Yingling and Col. Joseph Rogers claim they shot down MiG-15s. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. In that way the Mustang would have equal Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempestextremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. The war against the jets intensified in November as the Luftwaffe increased its sortie rate with the Me 262. The German response was the construction of a "flak lane" of over 150 emplacements of the 20 mm Flakvierling quadruple autocannon batteries at Rheine-Hopsten to protect the approaches.